Nice to see you writing again Kupe. good article and way to point out some serious hypocrisy in the Catholic Church.

 

MM

Thanks, MM, I hope that you saw my "get well" note. Of course you had so many....

Let me explain why I wrote this article. As most people know by now, today the Archdioces of Los Angeles settled over 500 cases of child-abuse for $660 million. In a JU article here Link I stated my opinion that fines are not enough, action needs to taken against what has been an on-going and intrinsic problem. I suggested that criminal action is appropriate and maybe even the closure of some churches. Some of the victims agree with me:

Steve Sanchez, a victim, tells reporters "Cardinal Mahony got off cheap today. For $660 million he bought himself out of testifying in our case." Believe it or not, almost 1/3 of the settlement, roughly $227 million, will be paid by insurance.

Why didn't the Pope address this? In 2001, Cardinal Ratzinger was Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and was responsible for investigating charges of sexual abuse. He ignored problem areas, dismissing allegations of widespread abuse by saying "less than one percent of priests are guilty of acts of this type." He felt it was sufficient to send a letter out to bishops. This is the man that now tells Christians of other sects that their religion is wounded.

the Pope as the supreme interpreter of religious doctrine on Earth....always correct and infallible

Good article. Someone had to say it sometime.

The strange thing is, the same people who follow that false authority (God never gave anyone that authority or quality) put themselves in judgement, not only over other humans but with the utmost arrogance over other religions as well.

Thanks, ThinkAloud.

You know what the sad part is? (I hope that our colleague, Dr. Guy, someone that I have respect for reads this.) If you think of the Church as an INSTITUTION, as the exclusive agent of G-d on Earth, it is hard to defend it. Kids and other innocents have been hurt and exploited at exactly the moments that they were weakest and those who were supposed to safeguard them failed horribly. And this has gone on and on....for centuries. It is just evil, there is not other word.

On the other hand, if you view the Church as people, the problem becomes more solvable. It is time for the Church to rid itself of the pederasts and haters. Save your pity for the victims and implement zero tolerance for sexual predators. Zero. One act and you are gone and excommunicate. No more room for the Mel Gibsons who hide their hate behind a cross.

Unfortunately the current Pope has made his all-too-mortal stance clear. He wants to take a giant step backwards to the time of the Hundred Years War.

 

Reply By: Larry KupermanPosted: Monday, July 16, 2007 Thanks, MM, I hope that you saw my "get well" note. Of course you had so many....

Of course I did kupe, I read the article well after I got home and then re read it a few more time, let me tell you the tears flowed like a damn bursting, never have I felt so loved by so many people that I have never seen or even talked to personally. I was so touched that even now writing about it I have a lump in my throat from sheer gratitude.

Why didn't the Pope address this? In 2001, Cardinal Ratzinger was Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and was responsible for investigating charges of sexual abuse. He ignored problem areas, dismissing allegations of widespread abuse by saying "less than one percent of priests are guilty of acts of this type." He felt it was sufficient to send a letter out to bishops. This is the man that now tells Christians of other sects that their religion is wounded.

The Catholic Church reminds me of COPS, the thin blue line, never snitching on each other, covering for each other. Yes that is what happened he bought his way out of having to get on a stand, putting his hand on a BIBLE, swearing to tell the truth, because it would have been to UGLY for people to hear what the Church has been doing for decades upon decades, violating the innocent in the NAME OF GOD!~

Excuse me for sounding trite, but what was the point of your rant? More Catholic bashing? That's getting a little old. Large institutions make large targets.
I would surmise you take umbrage at the restating of Catholic doctrine, i.e. "wounded". And it simply is that, restating. It is not new. Perhaps I could interest you in bashing a few Jews or Muslims while you're at it, since neither recognizes Christ as Messiah. Of course they would use stronger descriptives than "wounded"; my guess is "infidel" "heretic" and the ever popular "blasphemer" would be some of the gentler terms bandied about.
The simple truth is that it's pretty presumptuous of anyone to take exception at stated beliefs of faith. For example, and please excuse my paraphrasing, the Muslim expression of faith "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is His Prophet.” Or "Hear oh Israel, the Lord our God is One." I suspect some may take exception to those as well. The Catholic doctrine based on Apostolic Succession is an expression of faith as well. I won't debate that here and now, maybe never; that discussion is as old as a lot of your list.
You know, I think it's terrible and "I am pretty much against" what the European nations did to the North American Indians when they colonized this continent. I guess we should refer the matter for criminal prosecution to the World Court, perhaps the Hague, and maybe we can just all move out and give it back to the Indians. And how about all those treaties?! You think we can get our blankets and beads back if we clone a bunch of Buffalo?

As an aside, you might want to revise number 2. That was Copernicus in his work "De revolutionibus orbium coelestium", which the Catholic Church was quite interested in. In fact he dedicated it to Pope Paul II.

I seriously doubt the Pope would imply anyone is "wounded if they don't acknowledge him. You can read the actual document for yourself if you would like here:

Link

By the way, the document was aimed at primarily, drum roll please, Catholics! Imagine that a Catholic Pope restating Catholic doctrine to Catholics, what a scandal.
In any case have a nice evening.
As Always,
Ora

The posting of this article coincided with the settlement of hundreds of sexual abuse cases by Catholic priests in Los Angeles. It seemed particularly ironic that the Pope would criticize other churches the same week that the LA Archdiocese settled a $650 million suit.

Despite the Church's own report (The Nature and Scope of the Problem of Sexual Abuse of Minors by Catholic Priests and Deacons in the United States - A Research Study Conducted by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, commissioned by the full body of Catholic bishops in the US) Link) concluding that 95% of dioceses were effected and that over 2.7% of priests engaged in predatory behaviors, the Church is absolutely unwilling to change in order to address the issue.

In some diocese, again citing the report, 6% of priests molested kids.

"The simple truth is that it's pretty presumptuous of anyone to take exception at stated beliefs of faith." So, you are okay with the Scientologists? How about those guys that committed suicide with nickels in their pockets out in LA a few years ago? Or did you mean taking exception with YOUR religion?

It is a long-standing concept in some faiths that man may question anything. Otherwise Abraham would have sacrificed Isaac and we would not be having this discussion. Hasidic master Rabbi Levi Yitzhak of Berditchev brough G-d to trial in the 19th century because he felt that the Messiah was overdue. Did you ever read Elie Wiesel's "The Trial of God" based on the Book of Job?

You said "I seriously doubt the Pope would imply anyone is "wounded if they don't acknowledge him. You can read the actual document for yourself if you would like here." The Pope's statement referenced a report that he had written when he was Cardinal Ratzinger. As reported by a uge preponderance of media:

"A 16-page document prepared by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which Pope Benedict XVI headed when he was a cardinal, described Christian Orthodox churches as true churches, but suffering from a "wound" because they do not recognize the primacy of the pope.

The document said the "wound is still more profound" in the Protestant denominations. "Despite the fact that this teaching has created no little distress . . . it is nevertheless difficult to see how the title of 'Church' could possibly be attributed to them," it said." - Source: Washington Post

Reuters: Vatican says other Christian churches "wounded"

ABC New: Vatican says other Christian churches "wounded"

I think that my statements are well supported.


It was Galileo and Urban VII that I referenced. Galileo was required to recant his heliocentric ideas; the idea that the Sun is stationary was condemned as "formally heretical."

Regrettably you sound very defensive, especially using the very common and falsely meant and falsely delivered invective of "have a nice evening". The latter is such a common device used by those who feel wounded but don’t know which way to turn, its unreal. Its so obviously false, so obviously points at someone at their last line of defense, its astonishing people can be so naive as to think it has any effect - certainly not the one intended.

No one in their right mind believes this only happens in the Catholic Church. It is equal insanity to automatically go on the defensive when someone claims it has done wrong - not only claims, but when it is so clear that it has happened, you would need to be such a blind bigot to deny it, that it would put you on the same level to which you accuse others. Therefore the priority is solve the issue; spin doctoring, finger pointing, defending the indefensible and sticking your head in the sand can come later.

Meanwhile the children suffer, and continue to suffer because Faiths of ALL religions spend far too much time defending the indefensible, and brushing issues such as this under the carpet with smoke and mirrors instead on meeting them head on. You wonder why the numbers of people who are devout believers (particularly in Christian Faiths) are terminally declining? You wonder why this particular act of utter abhorrence has continued for Centuries?

For Pity’s Sake, stop the waffle, the defensive reactions, the smoke and mirrors when horrific acts such as this are Indisputably proven, and concentrate on the Real issue, how to stop the depravity in question reoccurring. The inquisition and finger pointing can come later, then maybe, just maybe, the numbers of devout followers of the Faiths will rise, as integrity and common decency returns their hierarchy, and people regain their long lost faith in the various Faiths.

If the Pope (and the other Religious Leaders) stood up tomorrow and Publicly & Passionately denounced this abhorrence without equivocation, and pleaded for help from everyone in their bid to rid ourselves of this evil for the sake of our children – and actually meant it – you just might get even me to start and take notice of their central beliefs.

Get your priority straight, image and self centered warm feelings are not right now the priority.

Regrettably you sound very defensive, especially using the very common and falsely meant and falsely delivered invective of "have a nice evening". The latter is such a common device used by those who feel wounded but don’t know which way to turn, its unreal. Its so obviously false, so obviously points at someone at their last line of defense, its astonishing people can be so naive as to think it has any effect - certainly not the one intended.

Sorry I've been on vacation and not able to reply.
Desensive? No, annoyed and irritated? Absolutely. That being said, have a nice evening too (before reading into that or telling me my mind again, let me spell it out...get over yourself and find a real issue to support)!