To remain on topic, the article I think was asserting that much of our Internet experience is due to people who are Jewish. 

I would dispute some of that since I think that someone else would have stepped forward (a computer maker and various digital merchants -- someone's going to fill the vacuum).

But I do think that if you look at the big picture that jewish people tend to be more materially successful for the reasons I outlined in response #28.

As well off as I am today, I can imagine how much quicker and easier it would have been if I had had family or clan-like connections or even business partners. You can skip a lot of steps if you have a support network to rely upon. 

Having been to my share of Entrepreneur banquets and what not, the "sold his first business at 21 for X million" usually is another way of saying "Dad helped".   Meanwhile, when I was 21, the first major product of my start-up made little money for us because the publisher didn't pay royalties.  Unlike the connected 21 year old, I didn't even have enough money to hire a lawyer to collect the $500k or so I was owed let alone have a network of business veterans to negotiate and finalize a multi-million dollar acquisition.

By contrast, someone whose parents or friends or fellow members of a particular creed can provide capital, expertise, introductions, and experience to young entrepreneurs.  This is particularly true of those who seek their fortunes in capital markets (Internet retailers of various sorts).

That doesn't take anything away from the successful individuals and their achievements. Nor does it take away anything from the Jewish culture that values material success (compared to Christian culture which is often hostile to the concept of people working for material wealth -- oh they'll lavish praise on athletes and then criticize capitalists). 

But the reality is, IMO, Jewish success is overwhelmingly due to the advantages of clan. I have seen it many times -- all things being equal -- or not even completley equal -- jewish decision makers choosing jewish vendors or partners over non-jewish. No different than a gigantic fraternity, etc.   People are like that.  I give graduates of Western Michigan University an extra look when their resume pops onto my desk simply because I went there. It's human nature.

And the secondary reason for Jewish success is a culture of valuing material success.  I know of one Jewish CEO in the skinning community whose MySpace page has pictures of their home that appear to have been taken by a professional photographer. He takes pride in his material achievements.  By contrast, I don't put up pictures of my house (other than my lake cottage because it's new) because I fear the negative perception it will generate.  And I'm more capitalistic than most people. So let's face it, when we spit or tut-tut the concept of material success, you lesson the incentive to do the hard work to make it happen. Advantage: Judaism.

Shame on petty Christian culture who tries to hide their envy and jealousy behind faux-piusness.  But also shame on all clans and creeds and groups that discriminate based on a shared creed, religion, culture. Merit should be the guide. 

 

Obscure Seinfeld reference...funny.

Same point as I was making....race, colour or creed is irrelevant.

We have many bakeries here in Oz that are owned by Vietnamese people....bread, cakes and pastries taste the same/as good as/better than those made by Aussies, Italians or famed French bakers, etc...yuuummm

What we need is a great big melting pot....yeah, 'Imagine' that.

I can agree with that....seen it many times in the property/building game.  I once had a work experience student [Architecture] ....taught him all sorts of basic tenets of design/problem-solving, but unlike me he had a close-knit family [Immigrant Italian] that had all sorts of doors/opportunities available to him that I was devoid....he can probably buy and sell me 20 times over now, as a successful Architect.  My family had no such connection 'in the game' so my professional experience was more down to long-haul reputation.

Much of 'success' is about being in the right place at the right time...but having a supportive 'clan' will ground you awfully well...

Philly, in my opening paragraph I stated "Being a Secular Jew myself..." A Secular Jew is one who studies all the aspects of Judaism, including religion, but accepts only the cultural ones. I study the Bible, for example, but don't believe that it was divinely inspired. More importantly, we don't require that a person have to meet birthright requirements in order to be Jewish. Orthodox Jews require both parents be Jewish, Conservative Jews require that the mother be Jewish, Reform that either parent be Jewish. Our definition is cultural. That is very much germane to the topic.

Starkers wrote "if I go to the baker to get bread does it really matter who they are if the bread is good." No it doesn't matter if the bread is good.....but would all bakers of all cultures produce the same quality? I think that the answer is "no."

Baker A belongs to an obscure religious group called the Pray-A-Lots. The believe that all out comes are determined only by prayer and that every other 15 minutes you need to stop and pray. As a result of constantly being distracted, Baker A always burns the bread. When people complain about the blackened bread, he replies that "I shall pray on it." He doesn't believe that leaving the bread in the oven too long is the cause because he doesn't accept a deterministic view of the world.

Baker B is a secularist. His world view holds that you determine the optimum baking conditions in order to create the perfect loaf. You duplicate and repeat said conditions, ensuring the highest quality standards. As a result of this philosophy, he becomes very successful. opens up a string of bakeries, sends his kids to college, where they create search engines....okay, I'll stop.

The difference between Baker A and B is not genetic, not caused by being a member of a better race Baker B uses a better methodology, because he has a more realistic world view. That world view is made possible by the culture that he was raised in and religion is a part of that culture.

Religions that insist that everything that is to happen in the world has already been ordained and that you will only be able to do what you are "fated" to do produce passive people. Examples of religions that encourage passivity include Hinduism, Islam and Evangelical Christianity. All three religions mentioned also discourage the accumulation of wealth. In studies correlating wealth and religion in America, Evangelicals score the lowest and Jews the highest.

Jews, as a culture, not a religion or race, tend to be more deterministic. Sure, the image that the outside world has of a Jew is the ultra-Orthodox or Chasidic Jew. But statistically, Reform Judaism is the largest sect and even more, one third of the Jewish population of the world is secularist. Religious Jews are in the minority and have been for the last 200 years. (We refer to period beginning in the late 18th Century as the Haskalah or Enlightenment. All modern forms of Judaism originate in this time.)

"But the reality is, IMO, Jewish success is overwhelmingly due to the advantages of clan. " I disagree. It is A FACTOR, no argument, but not the major one. Jews are successful because they actively seek success. Even the Covenant with Abraham was one of land and prosperity, not of Heaven. Success is something to be sought, not to be embarrassed about.

Last note on this post itself. I have been accused of being "prideful." Well, yeah. But in my culture, that is not a sin.

Reply #14 (Admin Jafo)..... BoXXi spots a rare spelling mistake. YAY!!

CAUSALITY.

  

Race and gender have no influence on whether somebody will become successfull, unless the society with which they have to work is racist or sexist.

But whether you are disabled or not certainly has an impact.

And religion is culture and why would culture not have an impact? It is rididulous to claim that it does not.

Culture is what we do. And what we do certainly affects how we do in life.

A culture that teaches reading and hard work will certainly generate more success than a culture that, for example, teaches that reading is not so important and that hard work for profit is a sin.

Some cultures are simply BETTER than other cultures.

High literacy rates are superior to low literacy rates.

Equality between races and sexes is superior to apartheid systems.

Cultures that recognise merit rather than high birth are superior to cultures that don't.

Jewish culture just happens to be among the best cultures. That has nothing to do with the Jewish ethnicity or "race". It has everything to do with a culture that is based on written law and a tradition of reading and writing and assimilating the best of other cultures. (Particularly American Jewish culture assimilated A LOT of the best of German and Anglo-Americabn culture!)

American and British culture are also among the best and since I believe that mixing cultures will often result in the best of both cultures to survive Jewish Americans or American Jews will very likely enjoy the benefits of having two great cultures to learn from.




Very good. You can read the facts and you make the decision whether you should learn from it or dismiss it.

If there is something in Jewish culture that causes people to become successful, you should learn from it.

It's a cultural thing. Some people will dismiss this, some people will learn from it.

The point is that perhaps many a Jew who reads something like this will try to learn from it.

(What? The English are best at X? Can I learn how to do that? If enough members of your society act like that your society will assimilate a usable component of English culture.)

AND then there's this arrogance issue...your mitzvahs are piling up.


Larry,

We're all glad your personal mythology works for you and it is something you are (very) proud of. But it's been really obvious from the outset that you posted this self-serving thread simply to try and bolster your own self-esteem, which would indicate that you have a problem in that regard.

Therefore, I suggest that, instead of trying to make yourself feel better about yourself by extolling the virtues of people who you only coincidentally share a common mythology with, you would serve your own ego better in the long term by actually accomplishing something of substance on your own.

Once you did that, you wouldn't be spending so much time trying to be associated with actual successful billionaires. You could actually become one of them.

After all, you've made it crystal clear that you've already got everything you need, right?

Say Hello to jews.
A little jew from far away of USA. I'm living in Iran. Toda Rabba

As measured and determined by WHOSE metric? Yours? I wonder who wins in your objective and totally unbiased analysis of other cultures. Ahem.



Tell that to the Palestinians...

Or, less cynically, the Chinese, Indians, or the other 99% of the human race that manages to live and die, prosper and multiply just fine thank you...without being Jewish or American.



As an American, I find your position ignorant and unsupportable.

We are NOT even close to the best when it comes to...

Taking care of our sick, hungry, or mentally ill. I think we're something like 37th.

Avoiding corporate corruption and undue influence of our political process. For example, the Chinese (one of the most institutionally corrupt governments in operation today) would have executed our current administration about 6 years ago...ahem.

Knowing the difference between justifiable acts of war (re: Afghanistan, in order to pursue Bin Laden) and unjustifiable acts of war (re: Iraq, simply for war profiteering). I think the Buddhists have us all beat on that score...and they seem pretty happy about it.

Respecting the inherent right of all peoples to live their lives under the beliefs and cultural norms of their own choosing. In other words, respecting religious tolerance and FREEDOM. We're not even on the same planet in that regards with the most of Europe, for example.

---

In short, I respect your right to believe in whatever mythology you were born to. If it helps you live a better life amongst your fellow men, then it is a good thing for you, and for the rest of us that share the planet with you.

But I ask that, in return, you respect the rest of the 99% of the human race that believes differently. You know...tolerance...the golden rule...that stuff. If you look hard enough, you'll find them in your Torah - infused into every single page.

As for the rest of us, we're doing just fine, thank you.

Whatever metrics you want.

I gave two examples. But feel free to make up any system of comparison. I am pretty sure that any metric applied will give you results that tell you that some cultures are simply better than others.

What's wrong with my metrics?

Culture is what people do. Are you saying that anything humans can do is equivalent, morally and with regard to productivity? If not, some cultures will be better than others.

I find western culture superior over, say, current Iranian culture. They kill women for adultery! Yes, American culture is BETTER than that.




Are you saying that you believe that "Palestinian" culture created a society as advanced and free as Israel's?

These people kill each other. And they produce NOTHING. Israel exports foodstuff, software, chemicals, and microchips among other things. Between 1949 and 1967 Israel grew to be one of the richest countries in the world, despite an influx of one million refugees from Arab countries. I'm afraid the Arab nationalist culture that ruled the rest of Palestine did not generate much wealth.




China has a VERY bad human rights record. I believe they are world champions in executing people. Communist China is one of the more productive cultures, but I wouldn't call them superior to or even equal to other cultures.

India is doing well, but some parts of their culture are clearly inferior to western cultures.



Well, American culture is not "all Americans" automatically. It is very possible that you are not part of it and that you are not actively supporting the culture I am talking about.

But I have grown up in West-Berlin and I saw a DIRECT comparison between American culture and Soviet culture. Trust me, American culture was BETTER.

It's easy to grow up where everything is as close to perfect as it can get and then not see how much you owe to where you were born. Had West-Germany not decided to follow America rather than Russia, my life would be rather worse now I am sure.




The fact that YOU disagree with a certain policy doesn't mean anything. But the fact that the US HAVE the technology to pursue that war tells you something about the productivity of America.

I have seen pictures of Iraq under Saddam, the gas attacks on the Kurds, the mass graves for Shi'ites... the people who profit from this war are those that survive because Saddam cannot kill them any more.

I would be willing to bet that you have never seen those pictures and that that is why you can so easily claim that the war is about war profiteering.

Feel free to take care of your sick better. As for the hungry, I have read about the American poor and how well they are off compared to most people in the world.



Really? Europe is great in respecting religious tolerance? Our synagogue had swastikas painted on it some time ago, synagogies in Switzerland and France burn, synagogues in Germany are under constant police protection; the former Yugoslavia had had several wars about religion and ethnicity and we have had some of the larger genocides in history within the last 100 years.

I reject the claim that Europe is more sophisticated than America when it comes to respecting religious beliefs. As for our freedoms... well... you can go to prison in some European countries for saying the wrong thing. Not that I am against that, but freedom?

You are right, you are not even on the same planet.




But when the results of following a certain mythology are better than the results of following another one, your tolerance ends?



I am NOT going to tolerate racism, sexism, stoning women, hacking the hands off as punishment for theft, the death penalty for insulting the president and all those other customs of some of the cultures in the world just because they "believe differently".

Some cultures are simply inferior to others. And any female Israeli fighter pilot is proof for the superiority of current Jewish culture over current Arab culture.



Not all of you are doing fine. You probably think you are very wise for posting the first politically correct reply to my claim.

Of course YOU are doing fine. You are an American. You profit from having been born into one of the greatest cultures that ever existed. Millions want to be what you are. But you can only be proud of that if you are part of the reason.

First thing to do would be not telling people complete nonsense about European tolerance for religious beliefs. You don't know anything about religion in Europe. That was very clear. I wonder what you based your claim on.
USA: Synagoges and mosques exist next to each other. Neither is burning. Lots of Christian sects co-exist and do not regularly fight it out in major inter-sectarian wars.

Continental Europe: Synagogues are occasionally burned down. There exist fewer Christian sects than in America. Occasionally Christian sects go to war with each other, like in Yugoslavia.

To me it looks that the closer one lives to George Bush, the more peaceful one is. And the more a country hates George Bush, the more violent is the society of that country.

Strange? I don't think so.

You are debating am american Poster Child Liberal. He should have responded to Rightwingers Glenn Beck post as that is exactly what the article was about. Moral relativism. There is no evil/bad. Just a misunderstanding of culture differences.

Excalpius,

I think you were so eager trying to post something politically correct that you managed to overlook what you were actually disagreeing with.

Let me remind you:



You are free to doubt any one of these.

Read this:

http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/98spring/peters.htm

Most people who write things like "No culture is superior" seem to think that they are very wise and have understood a deep truth that others have not yet grasped.

However, I have never found that statement with an argument behind it. It was always stated as an axiom. The real truth is that some cultures are BETTER than others.

Here are some metrics for you:

Restrictions on the free flow of information.
The subjugation of women.
Inability to accept responsibility for individual or collective failure.
The extended family or clan as the basic unit of social organization.
Domination by a restrictive religion.
A low valuation of education.
Low prestige assigned to work.

Compare any two cultures based on those metrics. You will find that contemporary Jewish culture scores well on the positive side, better than most other cultures. You might also find that traditionally Judaism scored better than other contemporary cultures.

American culture is free speech plus gender equality plus entrepreneurial freedom plus individualism plus no single restrictive religion plus world-famous universities plus high prestige assigned to work.

Jewish-Israeli culture is a high degree of free speech plus gender equality plus entrepreneurial freedom to a high degree plus small family units plus basically ignoring the restrictive rules of the religion plus multilingualism and scientific research plus high prestige assigned to work.

Jewish-American culture is a mix of the two.

I was 'keeping it clean' I named no one, but YOU were the one to respond, if the arrow shot into the air hit you somewhere, then what can I say. No one else took offense to the remark or even mentioned it, why I must ask did you?

While I have never read you and am assuming you have not read me, if you did you would know I am not shy about naming someone that offends me.

And, um, so? I am so "named" as someone that offended you. Thank you for this honor. I'd like to thank the Academy...

Seriously, I called you out as someone who was calling those of us who disagreed with Larry Lovemyself as anti-semites (since I saw no antisemitism in ANY post). Would you like to point out just what you saw as antisemitism so we can discuss it intelligently?